The bundling sucks. I hope somebody blows the whistle on this practice. The main reason I couldn't wait to exit retail was when this crooked practice began. Anyone remember what a debacle the Ps2 launch was? It's hard to think that PS3's will be any better. It's true retail is for suckers, because retail is just a bigger scam

Easy solution - dont buy overpriced hardware.

Patience little grashopper, good things come to those who wait.

If you absolutely have to have it - and remember, this is a games console, not food for your family or medical care :) - straight away and are willing to pay inflated prices, then such eBayers will have a market. Fair play all round, I guess?

The solution is to exercise some self-control and wait until the console is actually buyable before buying it. I mean, you'll have waited some 5 years already, what's another month or so?

It's borderline unethical, in my opinion, as the retailer was most likely told what price to sell at in exchange for a guaranteed supply. If MRSP isn't enforced in situations like this, why bother having one at all? More importantly why let your retailers make all the money? If the manufacturer knows that demand for his product is going to outstrip supply, he should be charging more initially, rather than standing in the boardroom yelling "they love me! They love me!", especially if they're selling the friggin' things at a loss.

Man, that's a shame. I tend to prefer independant game stores in general, so when one pulls something like that, it makes me sad. I'm just glad the tiny indie store I visited in Lower Manhattan not too long ago didn't eBay their copies of Phoenix Wright, so I (and someone else, at about the same time!) was able to get it at a decent price. Stores like that one in Astoria should know better-- I hope word gets around about their "business practices" >:(

What part of Astoria did you find that store? Ill go there and tell him what kind of wheenie he is..:-)

The PS3 is gonna ship a million units at launch, but thats world wide. So yeah, its gonna be real tough to find one. I advice everyone not to pre-order from EB or Gamestop. They will get a small number of units, just like what happened to the 360.

Its a dog-eat-dog world out there, and its gonna get worst when the PS3 is released. I have a few friends who are going to sell their PS3's on ebay. So by ready to pay big money.

The only solution would be for Sony to make enough to satisfy demand.
I don't that that is going to happen.

this started with the PS2. some of the people i worked with went out and bought several of them, by waiting for hours in line, and then sold them on ebay, because it was around christmas time and there was such a shortage. people were paying 2x the price back then just to get the PS2 for their children for christmas.

this will happen with the PS3 as well because there will be a huge shortage, and it's coming out just before christmas. there's no solution because there's always going to be those parents who think they have to buy it for their kids for christmas. until parents stop doing this, there's not going to be a way around this short of suppliers penalizing companies if they find out they did that. there's no way they could track that down though.

# 6, like someone said earlier, the only solution would be for people to just not buy them at the inflated prices. But I probably will be selling a PS3 when it comes out!!!

I think it's a complete sham the way that systems are bundled and/or resold on Ebay for quite a lot more than the retail price. This seems to have gotten completely out of hand with the DS, PSP and Xbox 360. This is true with retailers (large and small) and even worse, our fellow gamers do this as well.

I wished that the manufacturers and retailers would do something about this. I understand that I live in a country founded on a free market and capitalism (the U.S.), but it's as bad as ticket scalping. (Something where there are some actual state and local laws in place to stem the practice so there is a legal precedence against this.)

If the shortages weren't so bad, I wouldn't complain. But it's the regular consumer who suffers the most because they can't buy a retail product because someone else has bought three (from three different retailers), kept one, and put the other two on EBay. Why shouldn't those other two systems go to someone who isn't planning on selling them for extra cash?

I'm just glad I'm a patient man who's willing to wait and would never pay such a premium on a new console, but I think this practice really hurts the majority of us.

That's right. The manufacturers create this scenario. Flood the market with scarce items at a low price (compared to market value) and watch the feeding frenzy. It's not right or wrong. It's simple economics. I don't have a problem with bundling as long as it is done up front.

I have a solution. If MS or Sony wants to save face, and not create a feeding frenzy, all they have to do is put all of their initial shipment up for auction, and any money over retail goes to a charity. Talk about good will, and people could get tax deductions for the amount over MSRP.

But that won't happen, because every business owner dreams of the News Report where people are lining up to get their product. Still, I think it would be a great gesture.

Ticket scalping is only a problem if one entity buys up a large number of tickets and holds them to sell at prices over market value.

There is nothing unethical about selling something for what it is worth, and what it is worth is dictated by the market. Don't hate it. Embrace it.

How is the little guy hurt? He has to wait three months to get something at a reduced price? Cry me a river.

Sony can't meet demand at launch. MS cant' meet demand at launch. Nintendo might not be able to meet demand at launch. It's simple. They can't have extra plants pumping out units just for a launch. It just isn't cost effective. And they can't stockpile units in warehouses and miss a critical holiday season or leave potential revenue just laying around for months so that little Johnny can have his console on XMas morning. The world just doesn't work that way.

The only thing that'd be unethical about this is if someone bought up like 20% of the production and then eBay'd it. Sure it's annoying to have local business owners not selling to their local customers, but tough crap.

The only way to stop it is, as everyone else has said, by increasing supply. If manufacturers made enough, or too much, there'd be no eBay market for them (except for people who were trying to get rid of theirs cheap because they realized they couldn't afford it).

I will never embrace such a blatant mark-up of a system solely to make a profit. Where is your love for your fellow gamer? I am personally appalled by the thought of buying a system I will never play just so I can sell it on a secondary market to make a profit. PERSONALLY, I would much prefer that system go to a fellow gamer who will get some enjoyment out of it at a reasonable price.

Maybe I do live my life with rosy-colored glasses on. Maybe I am a complete idiot because I don't feel that this kind of competitive market is good for our industry. But at least I can look at myself in the mirror and say that I honestly care about my fellow gamer.

Hey G, what does that S stand for in MSRP? Can't really call something suggested if it's forced.

Right now, up there in heaven somewhere, Adam Smith is chortling ... "Dance little puppets ... DANCE!"

direct mail lottery. Just like your preorder with a $5 deposite. The shipping cost of USP would be made up by the missing retail markup. Every one who wants one on the opening day charges the five bucks on a credit card and gives there information. MS/Sony randomly draws however many names and if you are picked you get the full price charged on your card. you will still see units on ebay, but if some dickless wonder wants to rip you off he/she might have to give up there own. This keeps going until they run out of names or give your money back.

Not only is it ethical, it is rational and efficient. Obviously, people paying premiums on eBay want the product more than people only willing to pay paying retail at his outlet. So he is efficiently distributing the product to the consumers that will derive the most utility from it, as indicated by their willingness to pay. Microeconomics 101. If you want a console from him, then go on eBay and bid on one of his auctions. The only way it would become at ALL morally questionable would be if he did as #12 said and bought up an inordinate supply of them to corner the market.

Is there a contract between Microsoft and the game retailers they ship to? I doubt they'd be happy if they were providing a direct vehicle to certain game store owners to profit like this.

I don't have much problem with consumers buying up Xbox 360s or whatever and then selling them for profit on eBay. If one views eBay as a secondary marketplace, it kind of makes sense that people who played fair to wait in line and get a system should be able to sell it at a profit.

But someone who has been entrusted by Microsoft to sell the system instead selling it on eBay for personal, off the books profit? That rubs me the wrong way and if I knew that, I wouldn't ever shop at his store again.

SImply wait 6 months after release to buy a solidly tested piece of hardware with a stable price without hassle of finding stock.

Why? Because it will be at least that long before any essential games are released for it. The first wave will be nice but you don't HAVE to own it asap.

Lottery isn't a bad idea, but it won't quash the EBay angle. People will still be selling them like mad.

So winning the lottery would be just like winning the lottery.

Love for my fellow gamer? Why am I deemed not loving my fellow gamer, by selling something for what it is worth?

If I had a rare item and sold it to someone for peanuts, people would call me a fool. And they'd be right, cuz I am a fool.

I got two 360s at the end of December (quite by accident/luck). I told myself that if I found a friend who wanted to buy it I'd sell it to them for what I paid. If not, I was off to EBay. I'm happy to say that I did find a friend, and I didn't sell it on EBay because doing something for my friend was more important than making the money.

That said, I'm considering playing the PS3 release strategically. If I can get a unit I will EBay it, and use the profits (assuming it is double) to buy another PS3, so I'd be getting the PS3 for free.

So I'd argue that EBay could allow under priviledged gamers a chance to own a next gen system for free. All you need is $400 or $500 on a credit card, and you will have yourself a free system.

There is another solution, buy no one is going to like it. That would be to sell the system initially at such a price that, there'd only be as many people as systems willing to pay. Get that right, you still sell out, and much fewer people would scalp.

It bothers me because all that extra money being spent on a system (that's already being sold in good faith at a loss) goes to some greedy asshole and not the company that made the product.

You guys are crazy. You would do the same thing if you were in their position. But, since "businesses are evil", this guy is being ridiculed about it?

Did he say you are unethical when you buy stuff from the bargain bin, when he is selling it for less than he paid?


You guys need to move to Cuba, since you like Socialism so much. Its a free mark. Supply and demand is not a hard concept. Its worked quite well for the past few hundred years.

Bunch of fan boy wusses.

I'm with you Scooby Doo.
The "buy to sell" debate has raged on many a gaming "community" with suprising amounts of people claiming it's the smart thing to do.
Buying things and selling them on for a profit is quite smart, but it's a bit sad when a community of people who have shared all the hype and anticipation of their beloved console are openly declaring their plans to milk dry the people who can't get in a reliable pre-order.
There's sites where you pay for instant notification for when and where there's stock, the plan being buy as many as possible as quickly as possible.
That means they'll sell out in about 15 minutes flat, nearly all heading for eBay.
The fact that store owners are diverting their stock straight to eBay is the last straw.
Of course there's always a number of people who'll qoute the laws of greed, sorry I meant economics, and another few who'll give it the "if people are stupid and desperate enough to pay X amount on eBay ...blah..blah..get what they deserve blah..blah"
If Sony cut out the middle man and put all there stock straight on eBay would these people be applauding them and saying "well it's only worth what people are willing to pay, what a smart move!" - I doubt it.
Wait till the Rev comes out, ouch!!

Simple solution: Stop selling all first-party games and consoles to stores caught doing this. Two or three stores busted for this behavior would pretty much put a stop to this. The stores have already agreed, when buying wholesale, that they will not charge over MSRP. They CAN sell bundles in their stores, but eBay is off-limits.

If Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft put their foot down, this behavior would stop. Then again, with what a cheap piece of junk the 360 is (most poorly constructed console I've ever owned), I feel like they gauged me at $400.

Hey, I remember going into a local Gamecrazy (in Hampton, VA) a couple weeks into January and the guy said he had like 8 360's still and wouldn't get as many in the next shipment if he didn't sell the ones he had - his customers that had reserved them had either gotten one elsewhere or changed their mind. No bloated price bundles, either, just the $399 box.

Economics at work.

Totally blame MS though, if there was no shortage, this couldn't happen.

PS3- start with enough consoles, no need for this kind of thing.

The stores are just doing what makes them the most profit - if some dork buys an overpriced console for over 3 times what its worth, why complain?

Smith's invisible hand, people. Free market capitalism, to the death. People who sell at inflated prices on E-bay provide a service. They sell the system at it's actual market value instead of using an artificial price floor set by Sony. Then people who otherwise wouldn't be able to buy a system can buy one if the price is worth it to them.

It's the exact same thing as if you were rationing water with an upcoming hurricane. Do you sell Water at what it was already worth, say $2.00 a gallon. No. Hell no. The value of water just skyrocketed, and putting a price floor leads to shortages. Everyone and their grandma buys 20 gallons of water just because they can.

No, the smart and ethical businessperson sells that water for $10 a gallon. Then people who would horde, don't. They only buy what they need, what they can afford, and it is distributed more evenly across the population.

It's a universal rule. PRICE FLOORS CREATE SHORTAGES, NO MATTER WHAT THE MARKET. Price floor on Organs(I.E donors get no compensation) = shortage of donors. Wage floor(minimum wage) on jobs = shoprtage of jobs. Price floor on PS3 = shortage of PS3.

Now we all know there's going to be a freaking shortage anyway, but selling the PS3 at it's true market value(as determined by buyer and seller, not by Sonycorp) makes sure the people who want it the most get it, instead of some first-come first-serve nonsense.

CAPITALISM. Know it. Show it.

You can't price gouge the willing. It's an auction for crying out loud and for a toy at that. People willingly bid, they are not forced.

It is all part of the marketing machine for a new console. People clamouring and willing to pay anything for a new console is priceless advertising.

That's a pretty good idea on the part of the storeowner. And if you cant hold off on creaming in your pants for your next console, and willing to pay 200% of the MSRP, then you're just as guilty.

Unless there is some specific contract in place between the console-making company and this retailer, there is nothing unethical or illegal about what this store-owner is doing. Now, if he had taken pre-orders and then done this, you have a valid complaint.

This is what will happen in a capitalistic society when there is high demand and low supply. I won't lie, I bought an xtra 360 and sold it for double the msrp. As for the PS3, I won't get it when it launches.

things are always worth more when they're scarce. And I'd rather have a small business owner take advantage of that than some corporation.

Anyways, it's not like the PS3 is gonna come out this year anyways, with so many PS2 games showing up at E3 and all.

Bastards
Only we gamers should be allowed to do that. That's why I'm pre-ordering from a big store and waiting on a big line to get the ps3, which I'm probably going to hoc on ebay anyway, especially if there is a price hiking shortage.

This has always happened though. Either the store owner does it himself or one of his clerks will be offered an extra couple of Franklins to sell it to someone who didn't pre-order. The first time I remember this happening with video games was the xmas time release of Super Mario Bros 2. Many ToysRUs clerks got their palms greased that year.

I had a somewhat similar situation happen at a Gamestop near me. I ordered my Xbox 360 in July of last year. I was waiting for my pre-order to come in, but ended up finding an xbox at a Best Buy in mid February.

I walked into my Gamestop 2 weeks ago to return my pre-order, and the manager was cold-calling past customers to try and sell some 360's they had received that week. I asked the clerk if they were calling pre-orders, and he simply said "no, it wasn't that kind of shipment". What the heck does that mean, it wasn't that kind of shipment?. I asked if the pre-order I was cancelling was in that shipment. After looking around in their ghetto card box he simply said no.

Gamestop figured that all the people that had pre-ordered 360's would just wait anothyer month or so to get theirs, and they could expand their customer base to people who might not have even wanted one in the first place.

Since I already had mine, I didn't pay it much attention...until I was at home later that night and got a call from the same manager asking if I . Needless to say, I flipped out on him and told him I was never going to shop there again.

Rob (#15) is correct. Paul (#25) is using an inappropriate analogy with water and hurricanes - and here's why - you don't NEED a PS3 (or Xbox 360) to sustain your life. You DO need water, or other appropriate water containing liquids. There is a difference between illegal profit taking and supply / demand economics.

(Go three days without playing on your computer / game console, and you'll be twitchy, but probably fine. Go three days without any fluid intake at all and you'll be close to death.)

I was talking with a game magazine writer this past week, and the discussions he's been having lead him to think that PS3 may actually launch this year - in Japan, in limited quantities. He doesn't think there is any way that (a) Sony will have a worldwide launch of PS3 in 2006 or (b) that there will be a million consoles available at launch or (c) that in his opinion as a multi platform gaming geek, that the PS3 is really going to be worth spending the money on AT LAUNCH because there won't be enough good games for it to make it worthwhile. His suggestion was to just wait a few months and see if Sony is going to get games out, and to see what the consumer market makes of it. His concern is that Mr. & Mrs. Wal-Mart will NOT buy the PS3, due to the high price, and their unwillingness to re-buy their DVD movie collection.

As an economist I learned that its the natural laws of supply and demand. Just like how scalpers charge ridiculous prices for world series tickets, they try to teach us that it shouldn't be illegal. This concept is debatable as it shouldn't be illegal for the average person, just how its not illegal to sell a console on ebay for extremely inflated prices but it should definetely be illegal for businessess. Because they have an advantage since they are the retailers dealing with ms/sonry directly and have a duty to sell it to the average customer. If the owner wants to sell it on ebay fine but as a regular customer not in mass quantaties.

Pricing and cost sensitivity are interesting things. People will drive blocks to save a few cents on a gallon of gas. Those same people have no problem spending a premium for a brand-name product with little to no benefit over a generic.
I saw a Ford GT in a dealership a while back that had a "market adjustment" added that doubled the MSRP. Why? Because they knew that supply was limited, and somebody who wanted it bad enough would pay it. They didn't put it up on eBay, they just marked it up right there on the showroom floor. What if this local game store owner had the balls to charge what the market would bear across his own counter? Would people feel any differently about his actions? Why is it that eBay is the only place where price is more closely aligned to demand?

I've got no problems with stores doing this, if people are so desperate to own the next big toy they'll pay through the nose for it then more fool them. I'd suggest it's more foolish for the small indies NOT to take advantage of this - most have a real tough time surviving against the main retail chains...

What I do have a problem with is stores making false promises about delivering on launch day or taking a deposit for a pre-order with no intention of supplying the item.

Anonymous Rep, #29, you're missing the point when I'm talking about water. Currently it is illegal to price gouge such a substance in most places, but I argue that it shouldn't be. When you sell a good like water for less than its value, that leads to hording, which means LESS people get water and MORE people die of dehydration. If you initiate so-called "price gouging", then people do not horde the substance, there is more to go around, and while it costs more, a total of MORE people are able to get the resource, and LESS people die of dehydration.

Ebaying your consoles is only natural. It is hypocritical to complain about it when you live and embrace the capitalistic lifestyle in so many other ways. I don't see people complaining when Capitalism benefits them. They only complain when they can't get their toy for cheap! Well Wa-fuckin-wa. Grow up you hypocrites.

One thing about Adam Smith, who people seem to be using as their reason for ripping people off:

Adam Smith was a Communitarian. He believed that the market could be guided by the "Invisible Hand" because, as a Communitarian, he believed that people had...wait for it...morals. He assumed that people became socialized into a society where you treat your fellow society members with fairness and respect. When you do, the Invisible Hand makes sure that everyone will buy for the appropriate price, because no one would be disrespectful enough to rip off a fellow member of the community.

It's amazing how many people use Adam Smith to justify ripping others off, when in fact he advocated the opposite. If you're going to do something, at least get your justification right.

Ah yes...The plight of the angry consumer. A few things to keep in mind.

23. BY purchasing wholesale, businesses do not agree to sell at MSRP. Thats called price fixing and is illegal. However, some major retailers do agree to M.A.P. (Manufacturer Approved Pricing. Large retailers receive ad and marketing dollars from the publishers and manufacturers. If they agree to a MAP contract, they must not advertise the product for anything other than the MAP price. If they do, they do not receive their marketing funds. This is why stores run "in store" specials and you hear commercials for "famous maker" products. The companies can not advertise the actual name brand or they run the risk of losing the ad funding. BTW, most major retailers receive 2-3% on their total sales in Co-op fundind. That can add up to a ton of $$.

Independant retailers do not receive ad money from game companies and in most cases have never been appoached to enter into a MAP contract. Bottom line, they can sell a $50.00 game for $47.99 or $53.99. Heck, they can even sell the precious 360 for $1500.00 if they want.

Another thing to keep in mind is the mark up on the consoles. As i have mentioned on here before, the sheet cost for the 360 is $378.00 with most independants buying the unit wholesale for $388.00. Why in the world would any business owner want to sell the hottest product since the PS2 for $399.99?

***The biggest reason the independant is screwing you is, YOU ARE SCREWING THEM***

You have no idea how many small business owners did sell their 360's for MSRP to customers in their stores. Here's the problem. Many of the customers that got their 360's at an independant store didnt return to buy their software. Instead, they are getting their games at Gamestop and Best Buy. Software and acc are where the money is made! No store owners like selling consoles. They have to tie up a ton of money to make a very small profit.

Be faithful to your local shop. Its like the butcher shop of the older days. Get to know your butcher, get better meat. Get to know the owner of the local game store, buy your games and accessories from them, trade your games through them, and buy your pre-owned games there, and i'll bet when the PS3 releases, you wont even have to stand in line.

Snurp, please explain how charging someone the REAL market value of a product constitutes "ripping them off".

#13

I have no love for my fellow gamer.

Sentiment gets in the way of FRAGGING them. ;-)

You guys are just plain retarded. (Well except #31 and #35)

People who are saying that "Society should wait and be patient" obviously do not understand the basic principle of economics.

Supply and demand.

In the case of shortages, the supply can go over premium because the demand for it is huge. Plain and simple, the only way to control this is for the manufacturer to lay requirements to the retailer regarding the means of which their product can be sold.

You can blame MS all you want, but this was driven more by SONY during the launch of the PS2. Sony did nothing to curb the retailers into selling the consoles through their retail outlets. So what happened? They do forced bundling and even worse, backstab and sell on Ebay.

You want this issue fixed, talk to the producer of the console and quit your stupid rants to try to preach to consumers...because let me tell you. They are not listening.

Retailers only sell the systems for that much because they know people are willing to pay that much.

Scalping creates artificial demand though. People that don't want them, buy them, helping to cause a shortage, and then get to jack up the price.

If it was the STORES and MANUFACTURERS selling the things at market value, I'd have no problem with it. The fact is, that the scalpers are partly causing the problem they're benefitting from.

I own a local video game store and at launch we got 4 xbox 360s and sold them on ebay and made a profit. The people we sold them to on ebay had no complaints and are very happy with the purchase.

We get the systems for 397 so we would only make a 3 dollar profit if we sold them in the store. If we did sell them in the store they would be gone the first day not by loyal regulars but from people coming across town just to by the console no games or accessories and they are just going to go home and list it on ebay themselves.

Mom and Pop video game stores are closing down like crazy because of the ebgames and gamestop. People do not like to support there local video game store and would rather get less for trade and pay more form the big companies.

Now that the xbox's are more available we do sell them in the stores now. But we are required to purchase project gotham and a wireless controller for each xbox 360 we get. We do not sell them as a bundle to our customers because of complainers(you know who you are) So we are now have a huge stack of project gotham games that we can't sell. We can sell the wirless controllers but now we have a lost of $40 dollars for each xbox 360 we sell. So don't blame stores if they sell bundles.

So what you're saying gamesug, if I read it right is...

'Support your local mom and pop store, BUY STUFF OFF EBAY!'?

retailers selling them on ebay doesn't bother me, especially if it's a necessary business practice to keep them afloat. what DOES(!) bother me are the people who buy 4 of them and then turn around and sell 3. of course there's not much to be done about it, but (deep down inside) i feel like those should be going to people who actually want them, and not in a way that takes advantage of their desire.